Episode 1: "Introduction" & "Is landscape architecture?"

• So yeah, I was actually on a zoom call with Gareth a couple of months ago. We have some research interests that overlap.

• He's very interested in. How do we bring landscape architecture into societies that don't have a formal discipline or profession of landscape architecture.

• or even if they do, their their influence isn't as strong

• as it as it could be.

• So he's he's a great great guy. He's done a lot of work in the Middle East, which is a region that I'm particularly interested in.

• and the other co-author behind this book is Charles Waldheim, also a professor at Harvard

• He runs his own

• He runs his own firm, and

• I can't remember the the name of the firm off the top. My head. But one of our classmates, Ali Kim.

• who's also from Toledo

• is

• She was interning. I might be still interning with them. Now I'm pretty sure she was interning with them last semester during the fall, but he runs his own firm. He's like the head of the Gsd. Which is a pretty big deal.

• And he's done some pretty remarkable projects. However.

• both of these.

• both these individuals didn't just like write this entire book. They actually brought in a lot of writers to write

• topics. It's right about their different

• specialties, and how that relates to landscape architecture.

• So they were part of the editing process. They were part of the compilation process. But they aren't the sole authors behind this book.

• so the introduction kind of goes through. And this is my hope when we would have a larger crowd. And hopefully the audience for this group discussion kind of builds and grows over time.

• But,

• The the introduction talks about what was the inspiration. But behind pulling this book.

• and it started with Garrett Garrett.

• sorry, Garrett echo

• talking about

• in his short essay, which is the second part of today's reading, but he touches about it in the introduction first.st But he talks about how landscape, architecture and architecture need to have this like cross-disciplinary comparison to fully understand it. So when Doherty and Charles Waldheim were going through this

• through Echo's short essay, which.

• unironically, I suppose, also Harvard from a graduate from Harvard's, Gsd.

• He was part of a

• a group of individuals who brought a lot of change to landscape architecture

• where there was a lot of formality and a lot of rules in which how landscape architecture was supposed to be followed.

• They kind of broke a lot of those work. A lot of those rules, and

• broadened and opened up the horizons of what landscape architecture could be.

• So Dorothy and Waldheim reading this short essay, thought it'd be a great idea to not only compare and contrast architecture and landscape architecture, but how do we compare

• other fields of knowledge and landscape architecture.

• And the precedent for it.

• And he talks about in the introduction is

• landscape, architecture's origin or landscapes, understanding of landscapes. And if I'm not mistaking the the German word, the word landscape comes from the German word land shaft. If I'm not mistaken, I think that's something. John Davis

• covered with us.

• and

• it's its origin starts with painting.

• So you had artists who would look and gaze upon a beautiful scene.

• or something that just brought a lot of awe, and they would begin painting

• with all the details of that landscape. So painting the ground, painting the trees, painting the sky.

• painting all the human activities that are happening in the landscape. This was kind of the idea of like looking at a frame framing a scene.

• painting it, absorbing it, and now delivering it and and displaying it to the rest of the public.

• Which is, when you think about it, I really

• it's a really beautiful and spectacular activity.

• That we don't really have nowadays anymore.

• But as landscape architects, at least in the case of the authors of this book, they trace it back to that point.

• So comparing landscape, architecture and painting, landscape, architecture and poetry and literature, and understanding how all these fields philosophy are all impacting landscapes.

• and the word landscape is just such a universal world word.

• And we all have a unique relationship to that word. We all have at 1 point of time gone for a walk outside. It's almost just inherently a human activity to experience the landscape.

• and it it's

• it's valuable to start understanding the relationship and the connection between these fields of knowledge, because it allows us to

• a

• it allows us to understand what influences our perception of land and perception of landscapes, by looking at how do authors, writers, artists, painters, thinkers, how they have all had an impact in terms of how we perceive the world, and also vice versa. How do landscapes? And that's 1 of the chapters.

• That we'll explore later in this book club is, how does that.

• How does the landscape actually talk back to us? How does that knowledge even

• impact how we think versus not always as humans, how we're impacting

• the landscape.

• so that's kind of a precursor of of this book. Club.

• I'm hoping

• well, like we said the the audience can kind of grow and hear different voices.

• I do have my notes pulled up here to talk about what I kind of uncovered

• from my second pass, or reading through the introduction and

• at post short essay.

• But before I transition to that, I want to kind of open up the floor to allow other people to.

• You know. Introduce yourself also. Just talk about

• what was kind of the pull? Towards jumping into this discussion.

• And

• yeah, we can get ourselves kicked off from there.

• Clay

  06:41

  I can kick it off

• Ish Gad

  06:43

  I'm close.

• Clay

  06:44

  A

• I'm just a sucker for book clubs, I guess, and podcasts.

• and full disclosure. I have not read

• these intro chapters yet.

• So I'm gonna just kinda follow along and try to pepper in some useful

• commentary.

• Ish Gad

  07:05

  Dice. Yeah.

• Sam Clemente

  07:06

  Yeah, so I'm Sam.

• red

• a good

• portion. I would I would the 1st have a good portion of the second half.

• Clay

  07:35

  Can you hear him?

• Ish Gad

  07:35

  Yeah. Seems to be a be a bit choppy.

• Clay

  07:38

  Okay. Okay.

• Sam Clemente

  07:40

  Oh.

• okay.

• Clay

  07:50

  He read the book, though he's at least prepared.

• Ish Gad

  07:53

  Yeah.

• Sam Clemente

  07:58

  Is it like, really, really choppy? Yeah.

• Ish Gad

  08:01

  It was a

• we were

• having to.

• Sam Clemente

  08:06

  Oofa.

• Ish Gad

  08:07

  Yeah.

• Maybe try maybe try turning off your video. Maybe that'll help improve your interconnection.

• Sam Clemente

  08:16

  Okay, is this a little bit better?

• Yeah, I got one more. But

• Ish Gad

  08:25

  Yeah, I think we can. We can hear you.

• Sam Clemente

  08:29

  Okay.

• Ish Gad

  08:29

  Yeah.

• Clay

  08:38

  Gonna light some incense. So we hear, like the low lane, like lighter intro clicks.

• Ish Gad

  08:46

  Sam record that we might need that for the podcast.

• Sam Clemente

  08:50

  I'll turn it into like a beat or something for the intro.

• Ish Gad

  08:53

  Exactly.

• Yes, him.

• yeah, as as we. We just want to hear your thoughts on the

• what was kind of, you know. Introduce yourself.

• tell us a little bit. Yeah.

• okay.

• Sam Clemente

  09:07

  So yeah, I'm Sam. I'll be in ug 2. I read a I read the 1st half and a good portion of the second.

• I

• but I haven't really studied landscapes in in a curriculum

• setting. So

• I mean, we'll have a lot of different perspectives. Among those 3.

• But yeah, I'm also interested in podcasts and books as well.

• Clay

  09:33

  Yeah, I guess I should add, I

• have no formal background and landscaping, or anything like that.

• my engineer

• by trade and training.

• So yeah, that should be able to, I should be able to provide a pretty unique perspective.

• I've read.

• Ish Gad

  09:54

  Yeah, I did.

• Clay

  09:54

  Bit of like Frank Lloyd Wright, some of his philosophy on his landscaping, and

• looked at a few of the different projects that he's done so. That's kind of

• my background.

• Ish Gad

  10:09

  Yeah, yeah, no. I I think that's a whole point. And honestly, I was glad that you were one of the people who

• tapped in

• for this podcast just because, like I said, it's like

• finding those interdisciplinary

• overlap is great because it it opens up our horizons. Sometimes it works.

• Clay

  10:33

  Jump in real quick.

• Ish Gad

  10:34

  Oh, no! There.

• Clay

  10:35

  You guys talk about Frank Lloyd right at all? Or is he like.

• I know he like to me as an outsider. That's probably like one of the more famous people or somebody that I've

• latched onto. I know sometimes like

• I don't know if you're art student or something. You're probably not like talking about Picasso all the time, or you might even.

• you know, have negative feelings towards him.

• Ish Gad

  10:56

  So Frank Lloyd Wright.

• he's he's an interesting figure because he is an engineer. He's a he's a he was trained under civil engineers.

• But he had a very much an architectural.

• He ran an architecture firm.

• and not only that, he had a very strong environmental slant to his work

• so

• heated falling waters right.

• Clay

  11:23

  Yeah.

• Ish Gad

  11:25

  So he he was. He was. He's famous in landscape architecture for that.

• And I'm sure people who are more knowledgeable than me would know more about his work.

• We don't talk about him in a formal sense. We'll talk about Echo.

• We'll talk about

• Other landscape architects who've kind of

• are more more directly tied to people like Olmsted. So

• Frank White Wright wasn't like connected to the landscape architecture, tradition, so we don't like claim him.

• But I think, more broadly speaking, when you kind of step out of the academic mind. Anybody who is a landscape architect or isn't so like.

• you know, has his blinders on, will still step out

• of his like

• intellectual territory and appreciate Frank Lloyd. Frank Lloyd writes.

• Clay

  12:15

  Such a hard name to say.

• Ish Gad

  12:16

  Yeah, yeah, it's like, if you want to.

• Clay

  12:19

  The r's, and the l's like.

• Ish Gad

  12:22

  you wanna do justice to the man cause he

• so he's done a lot.

• Clay

  12:27

  Yeah, that's that's kind of what I figured. So thanks for that.

• Sam Clemente

  12:32

  In a lot of his houses, too. There's like I visited the Darwin house in Buffalo.

• and it's kind of like a it's a there's like a courtyard or so. He's he's kind of designed like

• public spaces and communal spaces that are

• that will include like more green space. So it's not like

• there's a hard line to draw there.

• Clay

  12:54

  Okay. Yeah.

• Ish Gad

  12:58

  so

• so yeah, I mean,

• I think, I think

• I mean it's interesting that you bring frank lloyd right in in the context of this conversation, and I'd be very interested to think of like I mean, if we had Echo still with us to ask the question, what would Echo think of Frank Lloyd Wright? Because Echo was talking in a short essay.

• And here let me pull my notes here.

• Clay

  13:22

  Yeah. Can you give me a quick intro to echo.

• I'm not sure I'm familiar with that.

• Ish Gad

  13:27

  Yeah. So let's

• if we were, if we were a true podcast, we would have, like, you know, the second screen. And we'd have someone show up. Click! A photo of echo.

• And the thing

• It's a it's actually pretty fun. I'm I'm actually designing for a friend.

• His his landscape. He just bought a house.

• and I showed him echo. He's like, Oh, I love this guy, and he's like I want my! I want my place to look like that.

• so we'll see he'll follow through with that.

• So Garrett Echo was an American landscape architect, notable for his seminal 1,950 book landscaping for living

• he is

• He was born in New York.

• moved his family, moved to Chicago, Illinois.

• and

• he grew up

• California.

• and to my knowledge he did a lot of work. After he graduated from Harvard he went back and did a lot of work in California as well.

• His work is very unique. His drawing style is very unique. He his thesis. They show us his thesis work

• in our program, where they show how the iterated

• multiple times.

• And he.

• I wish one of my professors can correct me if they were on here, if they ever watch us in the future. But he was almost like one of the

• the founders of this idea of like speculative design.

• where we just don't follow rules in terms of design. But we're also exploring through our design work. So his thesis, if you look at his thesis, he had the same exact backyard

• like, multiply it by 16 times in a physical model, and in each model he would design something new.

• and through that exploratory process of designing a different backyard he was coming up with new knowledge by

• find new relationships and ideas in terms of how we can organize our landscapes.

• So

• this was a whole idea. And this is why schools like Osu Harvard, not all schools. If you go to ball state

• they still do stuff by the book. They they have not

• followed into that tradition at all, and they remain

• into following that. There's certain rules.

• you know, rules of threes, fours, fives, whatever it is like. This is how we put the plants together. You got to put a tall plant.

• you know, behind a small plant just very, very structured

• palm.

• So yeah, that's that's echo for you.

• And

• I don't know if I want to dwell too much time on the introduction.

• because it's a good bird's eye view in terms of what what each essay is going to talk about, which is great.

• But one of the things I have highlighted here

• that Echo talks about.

• He says, however, the built environment incorporates substantial open spaces which are indispensable to the buildings. These include corridors for pedestrians, vehicles, and utilities outdoor storage areas fields and gardens and recreational community spaces, such as parks, playgrounds, parkways, plazas, squares, malls, and so on.

• So I think he's he's getting at the fact that

• we can't talk about architecture without landscape architecture

• right? And we cannot design landscape architecture independently of architecture that we do have to.

• And he says in a later part,

• is saying to be true landscape architecture must do what it name implies. It must integrate landscape and architecture.

• which I think is

• which I think is true to a certain degree.

• but I also think it's limiting to what landscape landscapes have been right. How humans have designed architecture is obviously different. But how humans have traversed and interacted with land isn't just restricted to just architecture, that our response isn't just the architecture. I think that's where

• door Dorothy and Waltham are kind of coming in and putting together this book.

• say, okay, what else is out there that we can create landscape architecture

• to

• else, too.

• Any thoughts about that.

• Sam Clemente

  17:58

  Yeah, yeah, I think that's

• going into Nolton. I think it's really interesting

• at the 1st year studio for undergrads

• is includes both architects like prospective architect students and landscape students.

• and they kind of coined the term. I don't think it's been coined anywhere else called the like the lived environment

• where it's. It's kind of assuming that

• landscapes aren't artificial, and they're not necessarily built nor natural.

• And that goes for architecture, too.

• Ish Gad

  18:30

  Yeah.

• Sam Clemente

  18:30

  But

• I I gotta say that there's like a balance there, too, because

• you don't wanna

• dilute the the

• the respective disciplines by mixing them together.

• Yeah,

• and I bet that's where that's when. That's something that Walden will say, like, maybe in the next chapters or so, I didn't really find that in the intro.

• So there's there's definitely a balance there.

• Ish Gad

  18:57

  If I'm not mistaken, Sam, you had. We also recently published an archived essay from one of our old directors.

• Sam Clemente

  19:07

  Yeah. Jane, amazed. On.

• Ish Gad

  19:09

  She talks about that, doesn't she? About how we can dilute our our professions?

• Sam Clemente

  19:15

  Yes, I should have I'll cite. I should have cite my sources. But she said, like

• I guess I can pull up the quote, she said something about cross

• polynomization.

• Yeah, and

• but yeah, yeah, you get the point.

• let me

• So yeah, this is from Jane amid on. This was in 2,010. So this was when

• even the planning section was was

• and it's and it's for early years.

• So, she said,

• I think we need to achieve a deep disciplinary understanding and then cross to pollinate.

• We need to be wary of the big danger that comes with interdisciplinary mingling, which is the watering down of the respective disciplines. Overlap is great, but with the right anchoring. So yeah.

• Ish Gad

  20:07

  it, you know, as someone who's always been like always an advocate for like cross, disciplinary

• kind of work.

• I think she kind of. Really.

• I think it's really shifted my my opinion just like with those few words, my perspective on it, and how we do have to give

• respect to expertise and and and discipline.

• and

• I think it's great that we, you know, we revive. You revive that specific article, especially in the context of Nolan with a lot of the changes that are happening now.

• but I guess some

• some questions.

• for you guys.

• So.

• Clay

  20:50

  So I will say I'll add my little 2 cents to this I mean

• an environment, I mean, if you have, you have architecture. You have landscape, they are naturally going to

• meet somewhere. So if you separate them. And what is

• the best way of sort of coordinating them.

• I mean? Yeah, I don't think you want them

• to not communicate with each other.

• Ish Gad

  21:17

  In in the context of a design school. I mean, it's I think it's been a challenge, at least in Nolan, and I'm sure it's a challenge in other schools there. There is this idea of creating studios like we have studios which are just landscape architecture focused

• and ones that are just

• architectural focus. There is this concept of, like we create studios

• in which the the topic or the brief or the challenge of the studio is introduced.

• And it's and they recruit both architectural landscape architects to interact with one another.

• And that's like the most ideal scenario of like students like education.

• I think. Unfortunately, what happens is when we're if we'd not. If you're not brought up in that kind of culture and that education, you're kind of released into the like, the quote, unquote, real world where you're brought onto projects.

• And

• it's almost like the architect and the landscape architecture trying to play this like awkward dance of what? Hey? Like.

• you know, who's doing what kind of thing? Right? And sometimes

• people can minimize the other person's role. They're like, Oh, the

• the the architect is just like copying and pasting all the floors of the building. He's not really doing any more designing

• after you've designed the 1st floor, and then the architect can also can be dismissive and say, Oh, well, just throw some trees on my project, and we'll just call it a day

• right.

• but it's interesting. When you look at the projects at Nolan, you see the architecture. Students like wanting to put trees in their projects, and the landscape architects are also trying to like throw in like buildings in their projects to make the projects more real.

• and

• I don't know. I'm not sure, if I have a have an answer, Sam, do you have any thoughts in terms of how do we

• kind of bridge that divide? Or how do we coordinate the the relationship between those 2 professions.

• Sam Clemente

  23:07

  Well, I I agree that it it starts

• in your 1st year.

• it's hard to, because a lot of these construction companies, and

• just the way that we've been designing things. We're we're a little too stubborn

• to change our wave

• dividing up the work. And

• it's

• it's the curriculum between architecture, students and landscape students is already so different

• to kind of merge them would be I. I also don't have an answer so. And I bet that goes for other disciplines, too, like

• clay with engineering. I bet that

• civil engineers and

• environment environmental and engineers like there's

• maybe it's it doesn't work the same way. But

• just in

• in the real world it's it's it's a lot different than

• what we hope to do.

• Clay

  24:01

  Yeah, I I mean, I guess if we're considering like a large scale contract like, say, somebody's hiring out

• both disciplines as a subcontractor. But then, you know, you would. I would think that you would like to have somebody or a group of people that kind of

• know how to put the 2 together so they mesh

• within a project, I guess so. It doesn't look like you just slapped your arc or your landscape on your architecture.

• Ish Gad

  24:31

  I think there's a good amount of politics and governance that goes into some of these decisions. Part of it's from a client perspective. If you're talking about a private client that's just has a lot of money and is building something. But for a public project

• the city will usually say how much?

• Well, it's going to put some some codes in terms of like the infrastructure that needs to be put in, but also put in some rules and like, what's the bare minimum number of trees that need to be on the project? Right shrubs, so on and so forth, managing stormwater.

• And a lot of these things happen. A lot of these codes and principles happen from an advocacy level, from professionals. So when we come together as a group of landscape architects. We have to come together and say, Okay, how do we want to stay in business?

• And how do we also defend the values that we all agree upon it that makes our profession valuable to society.

• So

• when we come and have those conversations, we're gonna

• go and lobby to legislators politicians and say, like, Hey, we need to have trees in our city if we don't have trees in our city, then the city's gonna heat up, which is bad for the environment. So politicians like, okay, that sounds great. I agree with you.

• The research and the science looks correct.

• I'm gonna pass a bill that's gonna say, we need to have.

• you know, for every 10 parking spots we need to have like a single shade tree.

• And he passes that bill. He's celebrated as a hero in the in the city and gets voted again. Landscape architects are happy, because that means they stay in business because there's always going to be landscape related for available for them in the project.

• Now, I think your question, Clay goes a little bit beyond that and asking, Okay.

• how will landscape architects either

• play tug of war with other professions where they want to

• take on more work in those clients, in those budgets, to advocate and

• push the boundaries of their profession.

• And I don't think there's really a an endpoint to that conversation. I think it's just merely a response to maybe some global or regional or even local trends in terms of like how our environment is performing.

• So if we're noticing that the rivers are poisoned. The land's on fire. Then maybe we need to bring in some more. I don't know X, or all the truck drivers can't get their goods to move across it, move across the country. Then civil engineers are going to start saying, Well, we need to build better highways and repave our.

• I think it's conversation and emotion. I don't think we can ever come to a stalemate and say like, Hey, this is a decision. I think we have to read. Read the room

• and see what's working and what's not working in our environment. I think that's kind of how I mean.

• sorry I'm really taking up a lot of space right now. But that's kind of how landscape architecture was born. Frederick Olmsted.

• A lot of his work is in response to the intense industrialization that was happening in America.

• And if it wasn't for that intense industrialization where our cities were literal hellscapes, we want to have things like Central Park that is meant to mitigate the the stress and the

• You know the the I don't use the word pain and suffering, but just like

• the the difficulty of an urban landscape which lacked

• the proper environmental outlet that Central Park was then meant to fulfill.

• so it's possible we might not see landscape architecture or civil engineering as proper professions 200 years from now, who knows? Maybe it'll evolve and become something different. And I think we just have to be open to change for the long run. At least, that's

• that's what I see.

• Sam Clemente

  28:30

  Yeah. And I think.

• like the disconnect between the professions that you're describing.

• It's kind of born out of a misunderstanding. And I think that's why it's

• I love. I love books that have chapters as questions, and I think that's it's really apt for this book to be

• phrased as a question both the title and the chapters.

• Ish Gad

  28:51

  Yeah, yeah, yeah. I agree with you 100%. i i i like.

• I like the thinking questions as well versus like, here's the answer

• couldn't agree with you more. There.

• yeah, it definitely approves our thoughts more than to say that this is.

• you know, this is the answer.

• Right?

• Yeah.

• well, i i i

• I'm not sure if I have.

• I'm not sure if I have more more to add on. For for this topic, I think when we dive into each of the respective sections, we can possibly

• tease out more.

• Sam, was there any sections

• since you did read just looking at the table of contents. Was there

• any sections that kind of stood out to you that you're per particularly interested in like leading the discussion on.

• Sam Clemente

  29:51

  Let me check out the Pdf. I'm.

• Ish Gad

  29:54

  Are you still on the road? Yeah.

• Sam Clemente

  29:57

  Would you? I'm hoping my can you list off the chapters.

• Ish Gad

  30:02

  Yeah, yeah, I can do that for you. So we have literature, painting, photography, gardening, ecology, planning, urbanism, infrastructure, technology, history, theory, philosophy, life.

• And the last one is architecture.

• Sam Clemente

  30:20

  Right now. I'm kind of interested in literature.

• photography, and

• gardening. If no one wants to take those

• I'm open, I'm open.

• But the the fat less few, one less, few ones seem a bit more.

• sure, beyond my.

• Ish Gad

  30:40

  Sure, sure, sure, sure.

• So maybe what we can do for next time is you can read

• chapters one and 3 and I can read. Chapter 2.

• That way. We can come prepared with 3 chapters to discuss

• Sam Clemente

  30:57

  Yes.

• Ish Gad

  30:58

  That way. We can try to make it a goal to hopefully finish. Finish this book. By the by, the time school starts.

• Sam Clemente

  31:05

  Yes.

• sounds. Great.

• Ish Gad

  31:07

  So we'll we'll lean on you for this. I'll I'll fill in with some comments from the from the second chapter. But,

• I think we can, we can start

• we could start jumping through this book and get some get some good notes and ideas. I, I personally love podcasts, and kind of book clubs that helps them kind of reinforce what I've learned.

• And also.

• I think it helps us become better communicators as well.

• so I'm really looking forward to kind of riding out this this bike book club,

• and

• and seeing what comes out of it. So a good call on recording it.

• I'm not sure if there's anything else we want to end with. But

• I think this was a great start to to a book club.

• Sam Clemente

  31:52

  Okay, yeah.

• thanks, guys.

• Ish Gad

  31:55

  Sweet, sweet Sam looks like Clay's logged off, but we'll we'll see.

• Sam Clemente

  31:59

  And our soon.

• Ish Gad

  32:01

  Sweet.

• Sam Clemente

  Take care! Thanks!

• Yep, bye.